in - in - in those earlier days of thinking about games we really were grasping at concepts, trying to figure out what it was that we were doing in designing games. Today I think there’s a pl - proliferation of points of view, and ideas about games, and what they are and how they function. And I really think that, uh, we shouldn’t try and strive for a single definition of what games are. I think that, um, the most interesting stuff that happens are always those projects and ideas and experiences that are at the boundaries of what we think a game might be and, uh, and - and - and what it - what it might turn into. So, I love the things that challenge my own, uh, idea or definition of what a game is.