I think that games - I think that there is such a thing as an extremely abstract game. I mean, everybody brings up Tetris. Uh, but graphics, dramatic context, narrative context, representation, right. The representation of something that we recognize, that's not sheer abstract formalism, is something that you need to even comprehend the system. So, uh, you know, you could have a game that's dots moving around on a screen, and you can call it the dot game. Where you make dots do things. And, then you have to kind of carefully learn what the rules are. And, say oh, when I bring this dot over here, and move it next to that dot, some little dots come over to my dots, and then I’m able to pass the line, and leave the screen. And, I guess that's how this game works. Or, you could just call the game shopping, right? Which then contextualizes all these things. Um, I think that - now, again, is narrative, is that even the best word for that? I think that - some people think - there's just a lot of confusion about the word narrative, right? I mean, I think that the word narrative, to some people, it means a linear sequence of events. It means a plot. And, one of the things that I'm always saying, and that people who advocate the kind of narrative design I agree with, are always saying, narrative is not plot. We're always saying, narrative is world. Narrative is context. Um, I just think that - so, I do think that, um, with very few exceptions, and again, you can do like, experiments in - in pure abstraction. But, in general, game systems need contexts for you to comprehend them. And, even if the goal is not to have a dramatic narrative experience, they need context for you even to play them. Um, I mean, like, being in a war setting, even if you're not telling a war story, you don't really care about the story. That gives you context about what this thing, this object in your hand, does, right. That gives you context for what the rules are, what the goals are. Um, what I should even be trying to do. What I'm going to guess to try to do, as I explore the system. Um, so at the most basic level, narrative and narrative theming in context, is what - is what allows you to comprehend a system. And, I think that - so, at that level, I think that all games need narrative with very few exceptions. But, I think the - and, most people wouldn't disagree with that. I think that what - the disagreement comes from when you push that idea further. And, you begin, you know some people say, no, but everybody really wants it to be dramatic. And, everybody really wants this. Or, people who say that they want dramatic context are lying, because really, they care only about systems, even if they don't know it. Because, that's the only reason why we play games. And, if the game was un-fun, you wouldn't play it, no matter how good the story was. Which is patently untrue, because there's plenty of games that don't have good game play, that people play just for the story. Um, but, uh, I think that that's the disagreement. Um, and I do think it's hard to meld mechanics with narrative. I do think that it is hard to - it's hard for me, again, because I'm a narrative designer, to truly separate them. I feel like my job is to make them seem inseparable. So, in a way it's a hard question for me to answer. Because, I've devoted all my thinking to, um, erasing that distinction in my own imagination.